959 replies to this topic

[TAP]

Tapp: I agree that evolutionary pressure has something to do with sexual impulses BUT I'd like to think that over the past centuries most people have evolved enough to control their basal impulses enough not to jump someone's bones every time they have a sexual impulse. Setting that aside, most experts don't think sexual assault has as much to do with sex as it has to do with wanting to dominate, humiliate, and punish....at least in THIS century.

Define 'expert' - is that science or sociology? The idea that after 100,000 years or so of human evolution we have, in the last 100 years, evolved past our basic instincts but are doing the exact same thing for reasons of domination, humiliation and punishment is quite absurd....to me at least. Sorry to go all Flagg, but having left wing feminist academics telling us that sexual assault is primarily a crime motivated by violence/humiliation/domination is like having old white men telling us who can have abortions.

[TAP]

^^^ Do you think armed robbery is motivated by the desire for violence or the desire for increased wealth?

[Zimbochick]

Define 'expert' - is that science or sociology? The idea that after 100,000 years or so of human evolution we have, in the last 100 years, evolved past our basic instincts but are doing the exact same thing for reasons of domination, humiliation and punishment is quite absurd....to me at least. Sorry to go all Flagg, but having left wing feminist academics telling us that sexual assault is primarily a crime motivated by violence/humiliation/domination is like having old white men telling us who can have abortions.

Well I think a lot of what you are saying has to do with the fact that women (primarily) have invested time researching rape, and sexual crimes against women more than men. Women make up the staff at sexual assault and rape clinics. Primarily female police officers investigate sex crimes. This has come about by necessity, and because of the nature of the crime. There are very few men speaking out publicly about rape, it's just not a big priority for them, and for most men, it just doeasn't affect them. I don't see this as a sexist opinion, it's just the way it is. So it may be true to say men are the experts in the field, as they are primarily perpetrators, but women deal with the fall-out. So who has a better understanding? Damned if I know.

[TAP]

Armed robbery is a fair comparison in the sense that the need for sex is a stronger impulse than the need for wealth. Unless you are prepared to argue that violence is the primary motivation for armed robbery, rather than a means to an end, it seems to me it is hard to argue that violence must be the primary motivation for rape, rather than a means to an end. Rape isn't a conscious attempt to reproduce, just as most consensual sexual behaviour is not a conscious attempt to reproduce - and in many cases is obviously done within a context of deliberately not attempting to reproduce. The instinct is there regardless.... Your argument seems to have switched from "it is motivated more by violence (domination etc) than sex", to "it is motivated by more than sex' - which I wouldn't necessarily disagree with.

[TAP]

Define 'expert' - is that science or sociology? The idea that after 100,000 years or so of human evolution we have, in the last 100 years, evolved past our basic instincts but are doing the exact same thing for reasons of domination, humiliation and punishment is quite absurd....to me at least. Sorry to go all Flagg, but having left wing feminist academics telling us that sexual assault is primarily a crime motivated by violence/humiliation/domination is like having old white men telling us who can have abortions.

Well I think a lot of what you are saying has to do with the fact that women (primarily) have invested time researching rape, and sexual crimes against women more than men. Women make up the staff at sexual assault and rape clinics. Primarily female police officers investigate sex crimes. This has come about by necessity, and because of the nature of the crime. There are very few men speaking out publicly about rape, it's just not a big priority for them, and for most men, it just doeasn't affect them. I don't see this as a sexist opinion, it's just the way it is. So it may be true to say men are the experts in the field, as they are primarily perpetrators, but women deal with the fall-out. So who has a better understanding? Damned if I know.

I would think the criminal generally has a better idea of the motivation than the victim?

Here's the issue (to me). Claiming that violence/domination is the primary motivation for rape is of course more intellectually comfortable than claiming sex is the primary motivation, because violence doesn't live on a spectrum where it's good in some cases whereas sex does. But if you're wrong (which I think you are), then you will be looking in the wrong place for solutions.

[wedjat]

If sexual assault is a result of evolutionary pressures for men to procreate or have as many partners as possible, then all men would be sexually assaulting women everywhere. That's not happening. Clearly, most men can control themselves. The ones who can't I would say have mental issues, yes?

[freedom78]

If sexual assault is a result of evolutionary pressures for men to procreate or have as many partners as possible, then all men would be sexually assaulting women everywhere. That's not happening. Clearly, most men can control themselves. The ones who can't I would say have mental issues, yes?

I disagree. A species may vary it's reproductive tactics across members of the species. Who's to say we aren't in the middle of either a rise or decline in the usefulness of rape? Why assume that it is either evolutionary superior (and all must do it) or inferior (and it has disappeared)? Rape (if we can call it that) is used among other species. I'm fairly certain I saw unwelcome sexual contact between koalas on the Discovery channel once. The boy koala got frustrated and just took her anyway, clearly against her will. That doesn't have to mean that all koalas rape or that raping koalas* do so all the time. In general, rape would be, I'd expect, an evolutionary successful trait. However, as we have created laws and a system of punishments, I would imagine it has become less successful. After all, the rapist who fathers one child and then goes to prison (and is likely raped, ironically) is evolutionarily inferior to the non-rapist who gets married and fathers three children. I would expect that instances of rape (very hard to prove with underreporting) is likely higher in places with weaker justice systems.

Further, I suspect that rape occurs for a variety of reasons. For some it's about getting laid. For others it's about the power. There can be multiple causes of the same type of event. Any time you're dealing with something as difficult to predict as human (or animal) behavior, you go beyond the easy X --> Y, cause effect system to something much more complicated, where X sometimes leads to Y, but sometimes not, in addition to other things leading to Y and X leading to other things. So, yes, some have mental issues. I'd bet that others do not.









*Note: Pretty sure this would be an awesome band name.

[TAP]

If sexual assault is a result of evolutionary pressures for men to procreate or have as many partners as possible, then all men would be sexually assaulting women everywhere. That's not happening. Clearly, most men can control themselves. The ones who can't I would say have mental issues, yes?

Well, yes and no. We've evolved to the point where we can self-analyze and control our behavior rationally - in many of us that at least, some of us can't. Yes it's a mental issue, but that's almost a tautology - everything is a mental issue. Evolution is complex, we're clearly not all the same so we react differently given the a similar environment and stimulus. Rape is a low success poor procreation 'choice' for reasons already described (not by me) in this thread, but it's driven by impulses not directly related to conscious procreation choices.
Anyway, wherever that is going - I don't believe evolution or 'I couldn't help myself' is a valid legal defense. You can draw the line legally based on what a country/society/culture finds acceptable regardless of cause IMO. Personally, I think legal consequences of rape should be extremely harsh.

[TAP]

Armed robbery is a fair comparison in the sense that the need for sex is a stronger impulse than the need for wealth. Unless you are prepared to argue that violence is the primary motivation for armed robbery, rather than a means to an end, it seems to me it is hard to argue that violence must be the primary motivation for rape, rather than a means to an end.
Rape isn't a conscious attempt to reproduce, just as most consensual sexual behaviour is not a conscious attempt to reproduce - and in many cases is obviously done within a context of deliberately not attempting to reproduce. The instinct is there regardless....
Your argument seems to have switched from "it is motivated more by violence (domination etc) than sex", to "it is motivated by more than sex' - which I wouldn't necessarily disagree with.

Not really switching but I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all argument or motivation regarding rape. Some people say 'rape' and think of date rape situations or situations that start out consensual in a mutual-drank-too-much situation gone bad, while someone else can say 'rape' and be thinking of strangers jumping out of the dark or the battered wive. Others could be visualizing 'rape' as little girls being kidnapped at bus stops and being enslaved for sex for the next twelve years. People should be required to define 'rape' before we have these discussions.

ETA: You say that violence during rape is a means to an end. Consensual sex is not that hard to find now days but many rapists would still prefer to use violence to get it from someone who is not willing. Prostitutes get beat up all the time and no one has any trouble getting sex from them---violence is not needed yet the desire to degrade and 'punish' the prostitute is very high for some. Are you going to blame that all on primal instinct? I still say it all gets back to how a person was raised, how they view the world and other individuals. We either learn respect for others and self control at an early age, or we don't. We either grow up with an axe to grind against society because of a tainted childhood, or we don't. Of course, with humans there are always gray areas in between the extremes.

Yes, we will choose to disagree. I don't have figures to hand, but I suspect the vast majority of rape is not premeditated - I'm pretty sure date rape/relationship rape/acquaintance rape dwarfs serial rapist rape statistically. I'll take your word for it that consensual sex is not hard to find - though we have other threads that suggest otherwise - but I don't think that is really relevant to the argument. I doubt rape is generally a conscious, planned decision. Of course it is in some cases, but I haven't argued against that. For example, in the Rwanda genocides it's part of dominance/humiliation but that's a different motivation to begin with.

[freedom78]

Paying to become 'like a virgin' in China

Bo Gu / NBC News

BEIJING – Despite the gradual liberalization of attitudes towards pre-marital sex in China, as well as rampant prostitution and Internet pornography – a woman’s virginity is still highly valued by many men here, especially in rural areas.

So what’s a girl trying to disguise her past sexual experience to do?

Pretend to be a virgin.

Search the words “artificial hymen” on Google in Chinese, and you’ll get seven million results. Search “Joan of Arc Red,” and you’ll get over a million results – it’s the biggest selling brand in China’s growing fake hymen market.

Try to appear ‘shy’ for 'a better effect'
A young woman looking for a solution to her awkward problem can simply log onto the website www.xuexing.org and pay $18.40 for two fake hymens nicely packed in a wooden box. For $14.40, the same products come simply wrapped in a paper box.

The website says the goods were first invented in Japan in 1993 and then became popular in Thailand, followed by the rest of Southeast Asia before eventually making their way to the Middle East.

According to the instructions, the little piece of semitransparent tissue has no side effects and is made of a natural fibrin glue, a medical elastic substance, a soluble base and carboxymethocel.

“After you put this into the vagina, it’ll dissolve and expand. Have sex in about 20 to 30 minutes, and you’ll ‘bleed’,” explains the instructions. “A better effect will be reached if you appear to be shy and in pain.”




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I suppose it's just a matter of time before some loon puts one of these in in front of her previously installed RapeAxe dong mutilator.

[Mr. Roboto]

People are insane.

[TAP]

too funny that it costs more in a wooden box