53 replies to this topic

[TAP]

http://www.spiegel.d...,726447,00.html
Long and depressing but worth a read....

[Mr. Roboto]

Depressing is right. There were some great points about hysteria hijacking a nation when it's at a low point. Opportunists like Beck who see this as a chance to exploit and go in for the kill. The quote about hoping that these people are simply the loudest and not the majority etc. I've read articles similar and they too felt like a punch in the stomach when I was done reading them. It's weird though, all through these few gloomy years I've never really experienced this first hand. When I go outside I talk to my neighbors and everybody is ok. I go out to eat and people are out having a good time etc. I don't see the mentality I do on tv or read about online. I do have at least six homes here in my 'hood in foreclosure though. I see that, but interaction with people, I don't see the hysteria. When I read this article I ask myself if I ever thought like this (wanting more, thinking I deserved something etc.) and I can honestly say I never did. On one refi we pulled out 1000 bucks for some repair but that was it. I felt that was normal behavior at the time, and rational. I didn't go buy a boat for instance, or a BMW Z4. The average income after counting inflation, being less was really a shocker though. Even more sad are the talking heads who convince the average American to vote against themselves. Not only that, but march in the street and DEMAND it. In some ways, not to sound too callous, I wonder if they deserve it? Stupid people generally have a pretty tough life don't they? Should I feel sympathetic towards a group of people who are getting hammered after demanding they get hammered? Of course so many of us are just average people, raising a family, and don't care about any of this. They just want to know why their home is worth less, they no longer have savings, and can't get a job. I find the lack of empathy for this group (millions) to be shameful. I don't know if it was like this before and I never noticed it, or we have morphed into this nation of assholes, but I am often floored at the lack of compassion we seem to have for those less fortunate than ourselves. Do Canadians, for instance, also have this disdain for those further down the ladder? Europeans? I'd be really curious to know, but I'd imagine not. Just how did we become such a group of mean spirited jerks anyway? Ironically it seems worse now that we are in a time or crisis.

[TAP]

I think Americans are generally decent, generous and kind people. Like you I usually only see the hate, anger and vitriol in the media - admittedly most of the people I interact with are liberal leaning, but I get on fine with the conservatives I know too, they are staunch but not angry. I even like artcinco I think part of the sinking feeling is caused by paying too much attention to the media - which is why I try not to watch TV news too much - I have friends/family with very similar political views but who aren't information junkies like me so don't obsess on it so much. The US has certainly created the equivalent of a British type class/royalty/nobility with the super rich, and a culture (not universal) of wanting those poorer than you to have even less while wanting those richer than you to have even more, because you hope to be them some day. But I think that is more of an abstract attitude rather than how individuals treat each other. Europeans tend to disdain people from other European countries/regions rather than on wealth I think.

[freedom78]

I find that if you avoid talking politics, it's easy to get along with most people.

[artcinco]

I kid with people who are farther left than me at work.

I don't get emotional about politics but I know some people do. I find it all very fascinating. Much of the media "hate" is just programming to demographics to sell commercial air time. Almost everything does come down to money. I listen to Limbaugh because I have a long work commute when he is on, I am interested in politics and I think he has a good take on things more often than not. He can also be funny. I know he is very good about giving his audience what they want and he has become very wealthy in doing it. I know he was soft on W and takes shots at the left where he would give someone he supports a pass but most people do the same. I have seen Oberman's show and it is the same approach but from the left although I don't think he is as funny as Limbaugh. I say the same for the people on Air America when it was still on my local radio dial and I would tune in. I don't like Beck and can't stand Hannity.

I think both sides of our political spectrum have crazy people with crazy ideas that want to tell people how to live and would do it very forcefully if empowered. I think the American system with all its flaws is one of (if not the) best system yet invented for people to exist as a society. We get to argue it out and fire our government every so often if enough of us want change. Some can work hard and become very successful and wealthy. Some can do the same by being lucky or dishonest. Some can freeload and be a drain on society while still being taken care of for the most part. It is messy and imperfect just like human nature but it also allows me plenty of individual freedom of choice which I think is the point of it all.

Most people want the same things for the most part. I am not the biggest fan of our president not because he is black or anything as stupid, just that I sometimes don't think he feels as much love and awe for the American experiment that I do. I think he sees more flaws than positives, or at least comes across that way. I think Hilary would have been a better choice and McCain would have been lame but that's the breaks.

[TAP]

I think both sides of our political spectrum have crazy people with crazy ideas that want to tell people how to live and would do it very forcefully if empowered.

THe difference is that one side is empowered, the other side peddles fringe conspiracy theories on irrelevant messageboards and websites

Most people want the same things for the most part. I am not the biggest fan of our president not because he is black or anything as stupid, just that I sometimes don't think he feels as much love and awe for the American experiment that I do. I think he sees more flaws than positives, or at least comes across that way. I think Hilary would have been a better choice and McCain would have been lame but that's the breaks.

American Experiment? Isn't that a Beck meme
Obama hasn't communicated very well, though that's partly due to what the media wants to present I think, and Hillary likely wouldn't have let that happen. I do think he cares, but just not in the shallow flag-waving, empower those who want to asset strip America kind of way. Which GOP leaders do you think care - Boehner, McConnell, DeMint, Inhofe, Palin, Bachman, Grassley etc all strike me as extremely self-centered and unlikeable people who mainly care about what they can get out of America.

[artcinco]

I think there is a difference to "working the system" and wanting to significantly alter it. Politicians usually get richer while in office, I don't like it but sometimes there are some bad parts of a working system. I think most Americans have issues with parts of our system but do not want to replace it or change it fundamentally. I think Obama wants to enact structural changes that most people would not go along with. This election in some respects was the majority of voters tripping the circuit breaker. It happened to W in 2006 when people grew tired of the constant two-front war. W even lost some conservatives with his deficit spending and pro-amnesty for illegal immigrants plans. McCain would have been more of the same so he didn't benefit from some of the conservative vote. That plus the economic meltdown and the historic nature of Obama's candidacy helped to propel Obama into office. Much of my political perspective was formed by growing up in New Orleans in Louisiana. We had masterful crooks in office, mostly all Democrats like Edwin Edwards and recently Bill Jefferson. New Orleans unlike most cities and Louisiana in the recent past were all about lining pockets. But unlike most functioning cities where it is expected that 10% will come off the top of anything to "grease the skids" here it is usually much higher. Higher to the point where people and businesses just go elsewhere.

[TAP]

I I think Obama wants to enact structural changes that most people would not go along with.

For example?

[artcinco]

His cap and trade plan for one.

[TAP]

His cap and trade plan for one.

How is that a structural change?

[artcinco]

It invents a system where people who have businesses that release certain gasses more than others can buy credits from those who don't. It sets up a whole stock market type thing where a new layer of people feed at the through. It will increase costs throughout the economy. It will increase electricity costs for everyone significantly.

[TAP]

It invents a system

http://en.wikipedia....id_Rain_Program
Not debating whether cap and trade works or not, but it hasn't just been invented by Obama. It already exists ins some form and was signed into law in 1990 (Bush was president.)
How about the Patriot Act and the Citizens United decision - I would say those significantly change structure.

[Mr. Roboto]

The Clean Air Act already utilizes a cap n trade system and has been successful in reducing pollution by a significant amount.

It invents a system

http://en.wikipedia....id_Rain_Program
Not debating whether cap and trade works or not, but it hasn't just been invented by Obama. It already exists ins some form and was signed into law in 1990 (Bush was president.)
How about the Patriot Act and the Citizens United decision - I would say those significantly change structure.

Beat me to it.

[artcinco]

I knew my use of "structurally" would come back to bite me. I withdraw it and put in "stuff that I don't think is the best solution."

Would his health care plan requiring people buy coverage or go to jail or be fined be considered structural?

[TAP]

Would his health care plan requiring people buy coverage or go to jail or be fined be considered structural?

If it were true