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More Bush/Obama Bullshit


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#31 Gomer Pyle

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:18 PM


My thinking is this...there are things that may have been part of Bush's foreign policy but they weren't necessarily unique, extraordinary, or any of that. So, yes, missile strikes may have been part of Bush's policy, but they were the policy of nearly every other President, too (umm...technology caveat). In other words (to make up a completely irrelevant and simple example) , if Obama crafts a policy of "winning elections is good", then I wouldn't call that the Obama doctrine. Some things are too common to consider the Doctrine of any one President, and Obama lobbing missiles could just as easily be called the Clinton Doctrine as the Bush Doctrine. Similarly, the missile shield has been a work in progress since Reagan (at least).

Thus, the Bush Doctrine, as I understand it, is more about the use of war in a preventative fashion. And I distinguish between preventative wars and preemptive wars, whether the media does or not.

Well I certainly agree that not every single thing is founded on the Bush Doctrine. Like you said, missile defense goes back to Reagan's dream of SDI. However, we know now that it was pretty much the "bluff of the millennium" and actually played a crucial role in the Soviet collapse. However, there is a big difference in an 80s ABM system that was a mirage to having actual missile interceptors on the ground in an expanding NATO that continually moves closer to Russia.

As far as military action goes, of course Bush didn't break any ground on the concept. Reagan had the incidents with Grenada and Libya, and we all know Clinton's various conflicts. Where Bush(or I should say his minions) differ on these issues is the implementation of it.

Is the US gonna walk into a Grenada type crisis in the 21st century, or even an ethnic cleansing type disaster? Of course not. Those types of foreign policy crisis do not fall in line with our agenda. We can walk into Iraq and Afghanistan, kill countless amounts of people, secure oil pipelines, do this in the name of "spreading democracy" or in Obama's words, "zones of freedom", and conveniently surround our next target(Iran).

There are currently hostages being held in North Korea. Obama doesn't mention this, and neither does the media. Where's the outrage? Liberals would be pissing and moaning if this happened on Bush's watch. The reaction to it(nothing) is exactly what the reaction would have been under Bush. There's no incentive for these guys to turn this into a crisis. A rescue operation or even a strong diplomatic push is out of the question.

There are obviously no plans on any saber rattling with North Korea, but you can bet your ass that the war drums are quietly beating behind the scenes in regards to Iran.

We're not leaving Iraq. We're not leaving Afghanistan. I don't care what the "change brigade" says. By the time he is up for reelection, we will have boots on the ground in either Syria or Iran, most likely Iran.

If you were against "spreading democracy" under Bush, why are you for it under Obama? I have the same question for Bush lovers.....why the intense hate for Obama? More war is coming, so both sides should be content.

Iran? Syria? Somalia? Maybe a future skirmish with Russia in Georgia, Ukraine, or the Czech Republic?

Pick your poison and swallow it. People either loved it and hate it now, or hated it and love it now. Its a continuation of the status quo. Left is right, right is left, down is up, up is down. All the partisan bickering does is gloss over the fact everyone is actually on the same team.

Obama was supposedly strongly opposed to the Patriot Act, yet voted for it. Change my ass...
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#32 TAP

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:37 PM


If you were against "spreading democracy" under Bush, why are you for it under Obama?


I'm against it under both. I didn't vote for either still being a goddam furner.

I have the same question for Bush lovers.....why the intense hate for Obama? More war is coming, so both sides should be content.

Iran? Syria? Somalia? Maybe a future skirmish with Russia in Georgia, Ukraine, or the Czech Republic?

Pick your poison and swallow it. People either loved it and hate it now, or hated it and love it now. Its a continuation of the status quo. Left is right, right is left, down is up, up is down. All the partisan bickering does is gloss over the fact everyone is actually on the same team.

Obama was supposedly strongly opposed to the Patriot Act, yet voted for it. Change my ass...


If the US goes to war in Iran or Syria you will be totally vindicated and I will be first in line to buy you a congratulatory beer :) But there is a difference, Bush's voter base vs Obama's voter base....if the bottom line is reelection and power, continuation doesn't make sense. What does Obama have to gain?
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#33 Gomer Pyle

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:26 PM


I'm against it under both.

Then lets file you under the "sane" category. :D

I'm against it as well. Just because I see similarities between these two empty suits doesn't mean I am in support of it.

I would prefer a return to either Reagan or even a Clinton style stance on foreign policy. In my opinion, North Korea poses a much greater threat than Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan,etc., and we should have been dealing with this issue years ago instead of just letting it build and build with no consequence.

Obviously Afghanistan had to be dealt with after 9/11, and I wouldn't fault any president for going in there. However, the strategy was topsy turvy and the illogical step of going into Iraq while this war was still brewing is probably the biggest military blunder in world history. This is the neo con agenda and it continues. We have a future quagmire sandwiched between two active quagmires.


Bush's voter base vs Obama's voter base

I never said the voter bases were identical. Thats actually what I have always found so funny about the rise of Obama on the world stage. His followers proclaimed him the next Lincoln, Kennedy, (insert another legend here), while people like myself, other independents, libertarians,etc. saw through the mask and knew Bush II was coming. Even if his entire voter base woke up today(like a lot of Bush voters did in 04-06), its too late. He's already president, which was obviously the main goal. Promises of peace, low taxes on the poor,etc. were simply a means to an end. He's in there now, so all the shallow promises mean diddly squat.

All of his followers are going to get their change, but that change is more war, higher deficits, an out of control national debt, continuation of the Patriot Act, etc. In other words, all the things they were against 2000-08.

if the bottom line is reelection and power, continuation doesn't make sense. What does Obama have to gain?

Thats a really good question. Let's retroactively ask that....what did Bush have to gain? Other than imperialistic fantasies, global hegemony, access to oil, and the desperate attempt to prop up our near worthless currency, what do either of these guys have to gain?

A nation doesn't usually change presidents in time of war. Set your next war clock to 2010-12.
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#34 TAP

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:41 PM



if the bottom line is reelection and power, continuation doesn't make sense. What does Obama have to gain?


Thats a really good question. Let's retroactively ask that....what did Bush have to gain? Other than imperialistic fantasies, global hegemony, access to oil, and the desperate attempt to prop up our near worthless currency, what do either of these guys have to gain?


Bush's closest advisors had a lot to gain - Cheney and Rumsfeld and others certainly benefited and will do so for a while. It is leftist propaganda of course, but Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" lays out a lot of reasons for Bush's cronies going into Iraq which don't really seem to apply to Obama. Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely disappointed in the turn of events which started this thread but I haven't given up hope on Obama quite yet.
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#35 Gomer Pyle

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 04:31 AM


Bush's closest advisors had a lot to gain - Cheney and Rumsfeld and others certainly benefited and will do so for a while.

Oh I agree, and the common misconception with those who bitch the loudest about the so called Bush Doctrine is the fact its truly not his doctrine. The "Bush Doctrine" had its origins in the neo con faction of the party in the post Reagan era. Its pretty much a manifesto written by madmen such as Wolfowitz, Kristol, Rumsfeld,etc. This faction literally hijacked the party and rode Bush into the presidency.

I know this sounds like conspiracy bullshit, but a case could easily be made that Bush was merely a puppet for these guys to act out their vision for global domination.

Its looking like that vision has crossed party lines(surprise surprise!), and I am not surprised that Obama kept certain Bush cabinet members in his administration.

You know, just like how all liberal presidents make sure to keep conservatives in their cabinet(insert sarcasm smiley here).

Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" lays out a lot of reasons for Bush's cronies going into Iraq which don't really seem to apply to Obama.

The reason it doesn't seem to apply on the surface is because the war had already been going on for years before his rise to the presidency. All people need to do is watch what he does to see his intentions. Where's that massive troop draw down promised until he was elected? What about the Patriot Act which he hates even though he supports it? What about his anti lobbyist stance even though the White House is now neck deep in lobbyists?

Like I said earlier, he's merely a continuation of the status quo, and that was going to happen whether Obama or McCain won. These guys have been making strategic chess moves for a decade, yet people thought some liberal was gonna wipe the board clean and start playing checkers? HAHAHA!!!

Even if he (or his handlers) have little to do with the doctrine itself and don't publicly support it, they would have continued down the same path anyways because the wheels were already set in motion.
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#36 Gomer Pyle

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 06:49 AM

One other thing regarding a potential conflict with Iran....

I don't think a lot of people realize the true implications. An invasion and long term occupation of Iran is a "checkmate" move on the entire Middle East. Other than Syria(and the irrelevant Palestinian occupied territories), Iran is the only country not under the US umbrella. We've occupied Iraq, Afghanistan, and have a presence in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, etc. Not only do we control access to vital resources, the dollar gets a life extension through its only real remaining lifeline, the oil peg. Had this happened in any other decade, these countries would currently be the battlefield of WWIII.

Also, before the Iraq war started, Saddam talked about dumping the dollar. Guess which Middle Eastern country is now threatening to do so?

Did you guess Iran?


Oh wait....scratch these thoughts.

Obama's pulling out.Posted Image
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#37 Rim Job

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:32 PM

Bush was absolutely a puppet for the neocons.

#38 Mr. Roboto

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:41 PM

Bush was absolutely a puppet for the neocons.



Times two ^
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#39 Rim Job

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 06:31 PM

Bush himself doesn't have the intelligence to accomplish whats happened over the last 8 years. He spent his Presidency being a puppet for guys like Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Bill Kristol. I find it equally amusing that for the last 8 years anyone who objected or even questioned any of these policies were referred to as "unamerican" and "unpatriotic". Not even 100 days into an adminstration that was voted in democratically by the Ameriacn people, and Fox News has flipped from being a mouthpiece for the White House to holding teabagging parties and talking about revolution and taking to the streets. A bunch of hypocrites... on both sides, but mostly the right.

#40 Mr. Roboto

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 07:01 PM

I loathe the GOP, although I'm totally down with people taking to the streets for some good old fashioned teabaggin'.
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#41 Gomer Pyle

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:34 AM

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#42 Mr. Roboto

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:39 AM

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#43 Gomer Pyle

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:41 AM

HAHAHAHA!!! Thanks for the midnight laugh.
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#44 Mr. Roboto

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:44 AM

Trust me, I'm going to milk that tired ass joke as long as I can....that's just how I roll.
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#45 Timothy

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 09:18 AM

Isn this watermarking going to be the new MUSO!!!!??




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