86 replies to this topic

[Timothy]

yeah , but being require to have Id at all time and that are two different thing.

[freedom78]

One thing I haven't heard, and perhaps you can clear this up...what does it take for their citizenship to be in question?

Well that's the million dollar question now isn't it? But since providing identification is a requirement when one is questioned by police, those here illegally would be unable to do so. If the individual is unable to speak English, that is another tell sign as children attending school is mandatory until the age of 16 and American schools teach in english. To get to what you're really aiming at, I have no problem with racial profiling. I'm against pulling anyone over simply based on their skin color, but if people are standing in front of home depot looking for manual labor and don't speak any english, you have to go with your instincts. Part of being a law enforcement offical is walking the fine line between violating someone's rights and enforcing the law.

However, since you're a populist, I assume you'd support the democratic institution that has allowed arizona officials to enforce federal law.

Believe it or not, I'm not entirely against profiling, in some instances. It seems perfectly reasonable to investigate terror threats by focusing on those populations that have produced terrorists (foreigners in on visas, people from the Middle East or other countries where Islam is a prominent religion, etc.). I do worry that it will lead to "stupid" or lazy investigations, where this is the go-to starting point and leaves us missing real threats that don't meet the norm. Of course, other cases where race is used (the oft mentioned "driving while black") are ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, when looking to prevent crime (whether we're talking about terror or robbing a convenience store) it's fair to use any assumption as a starting point to look into something. The only caveat is that there are some ways of "looking into something" that you can't do (i.e. search and seizure) without real cause. I don't want to live in a society where every Muslim can be searched simply because most of our terror threats involve Muslims, or where every Latino can be searched because our immigration problems center on Latin Americans.

That can make it tricky to deal with the idea of day laborers. Unless the state has a law saying that you have to present evidence of citizenship or legal residency, then a day laborer standing in front of home depot is no different, legally, than the kids who come by to shovel your snow in winter. Seeking employment isn't probable cause for anything. However, if a state has a law about employers verifying status, then presumably the person hiring those laborers could face some legal trouble (can't imagine it's more than a fine). But, as you said, you can't simply go up to people and demand to see their papers.

Well that's the million dollar question now isn't it? But since providing identification is a requirement when one is questioned by police....

Is that really a law here in America? That one must carry ID at all times? Sounds very Czech Republic if you ask me. If I'm a passenger in a car on the way to a friend's house, why must I have my ID with me? I've heard police claim you must have your ID with you, but I don't think it's actually a law. Somebody tell me if that's true or not.

Plenty of people don't have ID. Kids, for example. Lots of old people who don't drive never get a renewal on their license. If you live in a place where owning a car makes no sense, I"m sure the population without ID is significant. ID is often required to take part in some privileged activities, like driving, flying on planes, etc. Some states require it to vote. But to live? Not that I'm aware of. Presumably, all citizens have a SSN, all legal aliens have some sort of documentation, but no one is required to carry this with them at all times. Of course, since most people have a license and keep it in their purse, wallet, or pocket, most people would have ID most of the time when not in their home.

I made a lot of valid points in this thread and they aren't null and void because Mr. Freedom78 decided to use gutter tactics and insult me and then leaving the thread.

Gomer, you posted that I "don't give a shit" about some people who were killed, after which you told me I took "the easy way out", that my "services would be better utilized in other threads", and that, unlike TAP, I was "making as ass of out" myself...all of this BEFORE my "name calling".

I even deleted the fucking "name calling" you were crying about. Can't you let it go?

[Gomer Pyle]

Well that's the million dollar question now isn't it? But since providing identification is a requirement when one is questioned by police....

Is that really a law here in America? That one must carry ID at all times? Sounds very Czech Republic if you ask me. If I'm a passenger in a car on the way to a friend's house, why must I have my ID with me? I've heard police claim you must have your ID with you, but I don't think it's actually a law. Somebody tell me if that's true or not.

That's definitely a fine line. I take it you haven't been stopped by the police very much(or Florida is different than here in Cali). You get stopped here, you better have some identification on you or you're probably going to jail for a few hours. Pretty sure this is a judgment call depending on which cop pulls you over. I got stopped for speeding in 2008 when driving on the freeway near Ripon. My girlfriend didn't even have her purse on her. He didn't give a shit and also just gave me a slap on the wrist. On the other extreme, my uncle and his friend were stopped in Modesto for "suspicious activity". My uncle did not have his license on him(he wasn't the driver), but they hauled him in anyways to find out who he was.

You're right that its technically not a law and I've seen people say cops have no right to ask a passenger for ID especially in cases of a traffic violation, but I'm not pressing my luck. Sitting in jail isn't fun and if an ID will prevent that from happening, I choose an ID in my wallet over jail.

Gomer, you posted that I "don't give a shit" about some people who were killed, after which you told me I took "the easy way out", that my "services would be better utilized in other threads", and that, unlike TAP, I was "making as ass of out" myself...all of this BEFORE my "name calling".

I even deleted the fucking "name calling" you were crying about. Can't you let it go?

"Let it go"? SLC weighed in on the matter. Was I supposed to ignore it or tell him to fuck himself? It was over until you brought it up again.


I'll admit my "don't give a shit" line was pretty harsh. however, you saying would they feel better killed by Americans was pretty sick and definitely out of touch.

[freedom78]

"Let it go"? SLC weighed in on the matter. Was I supposed to ignore it or tell him to fuck himself? It was over until you brought it up again.


I'll admit my "don't give a shit" line was pretty harsh. however, you saying would they feel better killed by Americans was pretty sick and definitely out of touch.

If by "over" you mean that earlier today you posted another negative comment and hoped to get the last word, then I suppose you're right. Either way, water under the bridge.

Anyway, I admit fully to having a sick streak to my thinking, but my point, simply, was that the immigrant part of it seemed an odd place to focus. Had those girls been killed in an accident with citizens or legal aliens, it wouldn't make it any better. I can't imagine anyone who has a loved one killed in an accident has ever thought "well...at least it wasn't an immigrant at fault". Accidents are accidents and they're unfortunate regardless of who causes them or is at fault. I'm sure illegals have been killed in accidents, too. It would be odd of anyone to say "thank God they crossed the border...otherwise MY car would have been in that spot!"

Also, given Punk's history on forums, I can't imagine you'd be the first person to tell him to fuck himself.

[Gomer Pyle]

Also, given Punk's history on forums, I can't imagine you'd be the first person to tell him to fuck himself.

=D Yes there is a long list there, including some he is friends with now and who post here(including me).

I try not to take any of this stuff personally, especially since we're not spring chickens anymore. I of course have no problem with heated discussions and any debate on illegal immigration can and will get ugly quick. Hell, my state is wanting to boycott Arizona which makes me sick to my stomach.

So while I may have crossed a line, I would say you did as well(I'm excluding the needless insult). Maybe it was just the wording of the statement that ruffled my feathers.

For the record, I didn't "hope" to get the last word. We can debate this issue until doomsday if you and others here choose to do so.


Yeah you have a quirky sense of humor, but so do others here. Main reason I like this place. Intelligent discussion with some jokes thrown in.

[freedom78]

People who watch vids of monkeys raping frogs generally need a place away from others. This is such a place.

[AxlsMainMan]

Law or no law, ID on hand would be ideal for identification purposes in case of an accident.

[cousin it]

I didn't read all of the comments, and perhaps my response is unwarranted, but...

It appears to me that the tea baggers and radical right want something just this side of a FFZ. "Ya don't have to kill 'em, just lock 'em up". Now, perhaps I am biased, but where the fuck did your ancestors come from? Open borders??? Hell, I thought that Laissez faire capitalism was the mantra of the conservatives today... at least the idiots that don't think, ie, tea baggers.

No offense to others... (Goldwater supporters)

[TAP]

You're smart to be "done here". You don't have the slightest clue on what's going on here and your services will be better utilized in other threads here. Neither does TAP

Ironymeter overload. 2006=the fake Fox story you're filtering your anti-Obama narrative through was false, nothing to do with Bush. I do have a child (unlike you), and I live my cozy liberal lifestyle in the middle of Brooklyn, where I see people of more nationalities/races/languages on my daily commute than most people see in their whole life. Other than your personal attacks I have very little interest in this thread, I'm sure you have lots of very important things to say in this thread, but all I read through my liberal glasses is that you're a chicken little drama queen.

[Gomer Pyle]

A "chicken little drama queen" that knows more on the issue than you. There's nothing false about the current crisis, and all three articles(one of which got info from a Fox News article, which is irrelevant) give a great portrayal of the disaster unfolding. Where are the liberal links exposing this crisis as bullshit? Please post them. With people such as Matthews and Olbermann starting to turn on this guy, where you gonna turn to now.....The Huffington Post? I doubt that allegiance lasts very long, so hurry before she does a 180 like everyone else.

[Mr. Roboto]

Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs

SAN FRANCISCO – In a tongue-in-cheek call for immigration reform, farm workers are teaming up with comedian Stephen Colbert to challenge unemployed Americans: Come on, take our jobs.

Farm workers are tired of being blamed by politicians and anti-immigrant activists for taking work that should go to Americans and dragging down the economy, said Arturo Rodriguez, the president of the United Farm Workers of America.

So the group is encouraging the unemployed — and any Washington pundits or anti-immigrant activists who want to join them — to apply for the some of thousands of agricultural jobs being posted with state agencies as harvest season begins.

All applicants need to do is fill out an online form under the banner "I want to be a farm worker" at http://www.takeourjobs.org, and experienced field hands will train them and connect them to farms.

According to the Labor Department, three out of four farm workers were born abroad, and more than half are illegal immigrants.

Proponents of tougher immigration laws have argued that farmers have become used to cheap labor and don't want to raise wages enough to draw in other workers.

Those who have done the job have some words of advice for applicants: First, dress appropriately.

During summer, when the harvest of fruits and vegetables is in full swing in California's Central Valley, temperatures hover in the triple digits. Heat exhaustion is one of the reasons farm labor consistently makes the Bureau of Labor Statistics' top ten list of the nation's most dangerous jobs.

Second, expect long days. Growers have a small window to pick fruit before it is overripe.

And don't count on a big paycheck. Farm workers are excluded from federal overtime provisions, and small farms don't even have to pay the minimum wage. Fifteen states don't require farm labor to be covered by workers compensation laws.

Any takers?

"The reality is farmworkers who are here today aren't taking any American jobs away. They work in often unbearable situations," Rodriguez said. "I don't think there will be many takers, but the offer is being made. Let's see what happens."

To highlight how unlikely the prospect of Americans lining up to pick strawberries or grapes, Comedy Central's "Colbert Report" plans to feature the "Take Our Jobs" campaign on July 8.

The campaign is being played for jokes, but the need to secure the right to work for immigrants who are here is serious business, said Michael Rubio, supervisor in Kern County, one of the biggest ag producing counties in the nation.

"Our county, our economy, rely heavily on the work of immigrant and unauthorized workers," he said. "I would encourage all our national leaders to come visit Kern County and to spend one day, or even half a day, in the shoes of these farm workers."

Hopefully, the message will go down easier with some laughs, said Manuel Cunha, president of the California grower association Nisei Farmers League, who was not a part of the campaign.

"If you don't add some humor to this, it's enough to get you drinking, and I don't mean Pepsi," Cunha said, dismissing the idea that Americans would take up the farm workers' offer.

California's agriculture industry launched a similar campaign in 1998, hoping to recruit welfare recipients and unemployed workers to work on farms, he said. Three people showed up.

"Give us a legal, qualified work force. Right now, farmers don't know from day to day if they're going to get hammered by ICE," he said, referring to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "What happens to my labor pool?"

His organization supports AgJobs, a bill currently in the Senate which would allow those who have worked in U.S. agriculture for at least 150 days in the previous two years to get legal status.

The bill has been proposed in various forms since the late 1990s, with backing from the United Farm Workers of America and other farming groups, but has never passed.

http://news.yahoo.co...n_take_our_jobs

[Mr. Roboto]

With people such as Matthews and Olbermann starting to turn on this guy, where you gonna turn to now.....The Huffington Post? I doubt that allegiance lasts very long, so hurry before she does a 180 like everyone else.

There is a distinct difference between "Turning on somebody" and holding somebody accountable. The right wing (media) walk lock step with their gang the entire way, never daring to question what their party says or does. The left are actually doing their job here, rather than act like fucking cheerleaders. It can be a difficult concept for the Neo Cons to grasp, but it's what we all should be doing. It's not a contest to see who is the most loyal for chrissake.

[PERM BANNED]

^^^ That's the biggest problem with immigration reform and those who scream illegals take jobs away from Americans. The reality is that Americans aren't willing to do those jobs, and if you could persuade them too, there'd be unions and labor laws and a bunch of other shit that would make profits almost impossible and send the cost of labor through the roof. Could you imagine if some union came in and told them they couldn't work more than 8 hours a day with a 30 min break every 2 hours? Produce is already subsidized by the government to make it cheaper. This is all part of the big picture that alot of people don't consider when they look at the issue. My buddy own about a 200 acre farm in central Ohio that grows farm every year. They have a group of Cambodians that come in to pick the corn because white folks would never work as hard or as cheap.

[Gomer Pyle]

Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs

SAN FRANCISCO – In a tongue-in-cheek call for immigration reform, farm workers are teaming up with comedian Stephen Colbert to challenge unemployed Americans: Come on, take our jobs.

Farm workers are tired of being blamed by politicians and anti-immigrant activists for taking work that should go to Americans and dragging down the economy, said Arturo Rodriguez, the president of the United Farm Workers of America.

So the group is encouraging the unemployed — and any Washington pundits or anti-immigrant activists who want to join them — to apply for the some of thousands of agricultural jobs being posted with state agencies as harvest season begins.

All applicants need to do is fill out an online form under the banner "I want to be a farm worker" at http://www.takeourjobs.org, and experienced field hands will train them and connect them to farms.

According to the Labor Department, three out of four farm workers were born abroad, and more than half are illegal immigrants.

Proponents of tougher immigration laws have argued that farmers have become used to cheap labor and don't want to raise wages enough to draw in other workers.

Those who have done the job have some words of advice for applicants: First, dress appropriately.

During summer, when the harvest of fruits and vegetables is in full swing in California's Central Valley, temperatures hover in the triple digits. Heat exhaustion is one of the reasons farm labor consistently makes the Bureau of Labor Statistics' top ten list of the nation's most dangerous jobs.

Second, expect long days. Growers have a small window to pick fruit before it is overripe.

And don't count on a big paycheck. Farm workers are excluded from federal overtime provisions, and small farms don't even have to pay the minimum wage. Fifteen states don't require farm labor to be covered by workers compensation laws.

Any takers?

"The reality is farmworkers who are here today aren't taking any American jobs away. They work in often unbearable situations," Rodriguez said. "I don't think there will be many takers, but the offer is being made. Let's see what happens."

To highlight how unlikely the prospect of Americans lining up to pick strawberries or grapes, Comedy Central's "Colbert Report" plans to feature the "Take Our Jobs" campaign on July 8.

The campaign is being played for jokes, but the need to secure the right to work for immigrants who are here is serious business, said Michael Rubio, supervisor in Kern County, one of the biggest ag producing counties in the nation.

"Our county, our economy, rely heavily on the work of immigrant and unauthorized workers," he said. "I would encourage all our national leaders to come visit Kern County and to spend one day, or even half a day, in the shoes of these farm workers."

Hopefully, the message will go down easier with some laughs, said Manuel Cunha, president of the California grower association Nisei Farmers League, who was not a part of the campaign.

"If you don't add some humor to this, it's enough to get you drinking, and I don't mean Pepsi," Cunha said, dismissing the idea that Americans would take up the farm workers' offer.

California's agriculture industry launched a similar campaign in 1998, hoping to recruit welfare recipients and unemployed workers to work on farms, he said. Three people showed up.

"Give us a legal, qualified work force. Right now, farmers don't know from day to day if they're going to get hammered by ICE," he said, referring to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "What happens to my labor pool?"

His organization supports AgJobs, a bill currently in the Senate which would allow those who have worked in U.S. agriculture for at least 150 days in the previous two years to get legal status.

The bill has been proposed in various forms since the late 1990s, with backing from the United Farm Workers of America and other farming groups, but has never passed.

http://news.yahoo.co...n_take_our_jobs

Interesting concept. Those that believe in illegals having carte blanche here are actually putting their money where their mouth is, which I respect. Well, those illegally here are anyways.

Wish my grandma liked using the internet. I think you'd get a kick out of some of her stories, and it also shows how far back this issue goes. Back in the 40s, her and her family used to work the fields. Even traveled to Oregon during certain seasons. Anyways, one year a bunch of buses full of illegal immigrants started rolling in and they were hired instead because the employers could pay them chump change. It was never the same after that.

I do think Americans will sign up for this program. Actually, this would be a good way for people on welfare to earn some of that money. I would certainly exclude mothers with small children from doing this kind of work though.

There is a distinct difference between "Turning on somebody" and holding somebody accountable. The right wing (media) walk lock step with their gang the entire way, never daring to question what their party says or does. The left are actually doing their job here, rather than act like fucking cheerleaders. It can be a difficult concept for the Neo Cons to grasp, but it's what we all should be doing. It's not a contest to see who is the most loyal for chrissake.

I've been saying this same thing for a long time. If all these issues could be issues facing America instead of issues for partisan hacks to foam at the mouth over, I think solutions to our problems would face smaller obstacles.

I just thought it was funny I was pretty much being labeled a Fox News sheep(a channel I don't even watch by the way, I prefer MSNBC over all others) when there's actually more left leaning sites/channels pissed off about this than any of them.

Thanks for posting that link. Hadn't heard of it yet. Any of it part time work? I'll go work a couple hours a day after work in those fields near my house if it'll send a few of these people back where they belong. Would I do it full time? No, but I would be willing to actually contribute something to the cause.

[freedom78]

I always pick fruits and vegetables...right out of my grocer's produce section