42 replies to this topic

[freedom78]

Uh...duh? Of course! If I could buy it and return it when it's found to be shitty (such as buying apples and finding that half the bag is rotten) then I'd do that. But given the choice between being ripped off or not, I choose "not". Also, I think you're missing out on the convenience factor here. Never underestimate laziness as a primary cause.

[TAP]

Uh...duh? Of course! If I could buy it and return it when it's found to be shitty (such as buying apples and finding that half the bag is rotten) then I'd do that. But given the choice between being ripped off or not, I choose "not".

Also, I think you're missing out on the convenience factor here. Never underestimate laziness as a primary cause.

Downloading legally is easier than downloading illegally isn't it - itunes/amazon are easy to search and then it's one click purchase? And can't you check out just about any music online these days before you buy it - everyone seems to stream albums on myspace, plus aren't there services like rhapsody etc?

[freedom78]

Uh...duh? Of course! If I could buy it and return it when it's found to be shitty (such as buying apples and finding that half the bag is rotten) then I'd do that. But given the choice between being ripped off or not, I choose "not".

Also, I think you're missing out on the convenience factor here. Never underestimate laziness as a primary cause.

Downloading legally is easier than downloading illegally isn't it - itunes/amazon are easy to search and then it's one click purchase? And can't you check out just about any music online these days before you buy it - everyone seems to stream albums on myspace, plus aren't there services like rhapsody etc?

Easier, but it comes with the same "no returns" policy.

I don't know what % of albums can be streamed in full. I would imagine it's largely up to the artist. One site I used a lot, LaLa.com, did that, but they recently shut down for good (no idea why).

I don't know a thing about Rhapsody. Sounds very Bohemian.

[TAP]

There isn't really a return policy for apples if you don't like them - not liking music is an opinion, an apple being rotten is a fact. Closer would be if you downloaded a corrupted file, then you would get a refund I think. Anyway to answer the question in the title: Legally - no difference in the USA. You can get huge fines and go to prison for filesharing. Canada seems to treat downloading differently, though uploading is illegal. Morally - Not really in my opinion. Someone created something that has worth, if you download it for nothing then it's theft. Sure it might be awful, but you run that risk with many things and clearly there has to be a no return policy for anything you can copy. To claim that no one is losing anything is basically to admit to being a pinko communist. A good capitalist would take their business elsewhere if they didn't like the business model. Me? Of course I download music for free sometimes - but I don't construct fake moral arguments to justify it. I like free stuff.

[LISA]

^ hahaha...the fake moral arguments

[Timothy]

[TAP]

[Timothy]

haha.

[Mr. Roboto]

A "pic off"?

[Timothy]

A "pic off"?

nose picking?

[freedom78]

There isn't really a return policy for apples if you don't like them - not liking music is an opinion, an apple being rotten is a fact. Closer would be if you downloaded a corrupted file, then you would get a refund I think.

You mentioned apples, and I was trying to fit into your analogy. Personally, I'm not a big apple eater. But I've bought food, found it to be bad, and returned it (most notably one of those refrigerated packages of ravioli...didn't realize it was chock full o' mold till I got it home). Anyway, regardless of whether you can return food, you can NOT return music.

Your point on a no return policy for things you can copy makes sense...but then why can I return books to the book store? If places that sell music had streaming albums, like a Borders bookstore often does, then this would cut down on my excuse making (but probably not illegal downloading among the population). But even in those cases, it's more often than not that only some of the songs can be listened to in full. Hell, the music industry is trying to suck money out of radio, which has been the best free promo tool they've had over the last 50 years.

All I want is to download all the music I want, for free, with no fear of prosecution, jail time, or fines, with the promise that I'll delete things that suck and get around to buying things I like in the next ten years or so. Is that too much to ask?

[*D*]

My point is still with Itunes... if people no longer bought music, those singles wouldn't be moving multi million digital paid DL's. Take Kid Rock for instance. He doesn't allow Itunes to sell his music. When his single "All Summer Long" came out.. people either had to shell out for the CD, or illegally DL it. album went from 500k copies to almost 2 million.... So lets do some math here... people bought the album now if that same song is on Itunes for 99 cents or 1.29.. do u think his album goes from 500k to 2 million? NO FUCKING CHANCE!

[TAP]

There isn't really a return policy for apples if you don't like them - not liking music is an opinion, an apple being rotten is a fact. Closer would be if you downloaded a corrupted file, then you would get a refund I think.

You mentioned apples, and I was trying to fit into your analogy. Personally, I'm not a big apple eater. But I've bought food, found it to be bad, and returned it (most notably one of those refrigerated packages of ravioli...didn't realize it was chock full o' mold till I got it home). Anyway, regardless of whether you can return food, you can NOT return music.

I realized you were trying to fit into my analogy, I was just correcting you You can return inedible food, and I'm pretty sure you can return unlistenable (in the literal sense) music.

Your point on a no return policy for things you can copy makes sense...but then why can I return books to the book store?

Likely because it's harder to copy a book than a CD? I don't think there's much of a return policy with Kindle/Nook/iBook books but I could be wrong.

All I want is to download all the music I want, for free, with no fear of prosecution, jail time, or fines, with the promise that I'll delete things that suck and get around to buying things I like in the next ten years or so. Is that too much to ask?

No

........One problem is quantifying how/why you would expect music not to suck. Obviously if you download something completely at random, chances are you won't like it since most people dislike much more music than they like (I would guess.) So what would be reasonable grounds for a return/refund? It obviously has to be different than from something which you can't copy.

[freedom78]

You can return inedible food, and I'm pretty sure you can return unlistenable (in the literal sense) music.

I've returned albums that were damaged, in exchange for the same thing. I also like to buy picture frames, scan in the pic that comes with them, put the scan in my own frame, and return the original frame w/ pic to the store. It gives the illusion of non-internet friends.

.......One problem is quantifying how/why you would expect music not to suck. Obviously if you download something completely at random, chances are you won't like it since most people dislike much more music than they like (I would guess.) So what would be reasonable grounds for a return/refund? It obviously has to be different than from something which you can't copy.

This is tricky, and it's akin to when you send food back at a restaurant. Is it poorly prepared or is it fine and I just don't like it? It can be tough to know the difference, sometimes. But this isn't a perfect analogy, simply because a restaurant can expect (if I like it) to get money from me regularly, say once a month. An artist is more likely to get it from me once or twice, and not more than once every few years. So, whereas restaurants count on you liking your food and coming back, music is based on getting as much money as possible, right now, regardless of whether the customer is satisfied. Most people don't care enough to actually punish the record label in their future purchases and who knows when that artist will release another album.

I truly don't expect a return policy on digitally copyable things like music, movies, games, etc. It would lose both retailers and record labels money, simply because many would copy and return and others would say "what a shitty product" and return.

There are some things I KNOW I will not like. After all, if I hate your radio single, I surely won't like the rest of it. While I don't download NEARLY as much as I used to, at the height of my downloading it was largely a way to explore things I hadn't been exposed to, often in the metal genre, but not exclusively. Some I loved. Some I hated. Some were borderline. I've deleted albums by bands but then have given them another shot on a different album and have loved it and made a purchase. At the end of it all, I'm spending more money on music and am MUCH more satisfied with my purchases than I was in the pre-downloading era. My goals in downloading were to explore and to stop spending money on things I was dissatisfied with.

I looked up Rhapsody and it seems like a good idea. I had seen their commercials and wondered how you could get infinite music for $10/month and the answer is simple...you can play it but you don't have a copy of your own. That's fine and it's a good compromise. It allows fairly cheap exploration, which is what I'm generally for. But it's still limited, since it's a computer based service and you can't play it in your car or on your home stereo, etc.

[Mr. Roboto]

I looked up Rhapsody and it seems like a good idea. I had seen their commercials and wondered how you could get infinite music for $10/month and the answer is simple...you can play it but you don't have a copy of your own. That's fine and it's a good compromise. It allows fairly cheap exploration, which is what I'm generally for. But it's still limited, since it's a computer based service and you can't play it in your car or on your home stereo, etc.

Can't you just play it on your phone then? Listen to it on your headphones at the gym etc?