959 replies to this topic

[TAP]

And why do they need two?

[Zimbochick]

This bloke is a big fucking douche.

Dilbert Creator Deletes Misogynist Rant

Here's what he wrote on his blog:

The topic my readers most want me to address is something called men’s rights. (See previous post.) This is a surprisingly good topic. It’s dangerous. It’s relevant. It isn’t overdone. And apparently you care.

Let’s start with the laundry list.

According to my readers, examples of unfair treatment of men include many elements of the legal system, the military draft in some cases, the lower life expectancies of men, the higher suicide rates for men, circumcision, and the growing number of government agencies that are primarily for women.

You might add to this list the entire area of manners. We take for granted that men should hold doors for women, and women should be served first in restaurants. Can you even imagine that situation in reverse?

Generally speaking, society discourages male behavior whereas female behavior is celebrated. Exceptions are the fields of sports, humor, and war. Men are allowed to do what they want in those areas.

Add to our list of inequities the fact that women have overtaken men in college attendance. If the situation were reversed it would be considered a national emergency.

How about the higher rates for car insurance that young men pay compared to young women? Statistics support this inequity, but I don’t think anyone believes the situation would be legal if women were charged more for car insurance, no matter what the statistics said.

Women will counter with their own list of wrongs, starting with the well-known statistic that women earn only 80 cents on the dollar, on average, compared to what men earn for the same jobs. My readers will argue that if any two groups of people act differently, on average, one group is likely to get better results. On average, men negotiate pay differently and approach risk differently than women.

Women will point out that few females are in top management jobs. Men will argue that if you ask a sample group of young men and young women if they would be willing to take the personal sacrifices needed to someday achieve such power, men are far more likely to say yes. In my personal non-scientific polling, men are about ten times more likely than women to trade family time for the highest level of career success.

Now I would like to speak directly to my male readers who feel unjustly treated by the widespread suppression of men’s rights:

Get over it, you bunch of pussies.

The reality is that women are treated differently by society for exactly the same reason that children and the mentally handicapped are treated differently. It’s just easier this way for everyone. You don’t argue with a four-year old about why he shouldn’t eat candy for dinner. You don’t punch a mentally handicapped guy even if he punches you first. And you don’t argue when a women tells you she’s only making 80 cents to your dollar. It’s the path of least resistance. You save your energy for more important battles.

How many times do we men suppress our natural instincts for sex and aggression just to get something better in the long run? It’s called a strategy. Sometimes you sacrifice a pawn to nail the queen. If you’re still crying about your pawn when you’re having your way with the queen, there’s something wrong with you and it isn’t men’s rights.

Fairness is an illusion. It’s unobtainable in the real world. I’m happy that I can open jars with my bare hands. I like being able to lift heavy objects. And I don’t mind that women get served first in restaurants because I don’t like staring at food that I can’t yet eat.

If you’re feeling unfairly treated because women outlive men, try visiting an Assisted Living facility and see how delighted the old ladies are about the extra ten years of pushing the walker around. It makes dying look like a bargain.

I don’t like the fact that the legal system treats men more harshly than women. But part of being male is the automatic feeling of team. If someone on the team screws up, we all take the hit. Don’t kid yourself that men haven’t earned some harsh treatment from the legal system. On the plus side, if I’m trapped in a burning car someday, a man will be the one pulling me out. That’s the team I want to be on.

I realize I might take some heat for lumping women, children and the mentally handicapped in the same group. So I want to be perfectly clear. I’m not saying women are similar to either group. I’m saying that a man’s best strategy for dealing with each group is disturbingly similar. If he’s smart, he takes the path of least resistance most of the time, which involves considering the emotional realities of other people. A man only digs in for a good fight on the few issues that matter to him, and for which he has some chance of winning. This is a strategy that men are uniquely suited for because, on average, we genuinely don’t care about 90% of what is happening around us.

[AxlsMainMan]

He does have a point on the legal system - treatment of fathers in child custody disputes is atrocious, as is the fact that women consistently serve about third of the sentence a male would get for killing their spouse.

[Zimbochick]

He does have a point on the legal system - treatment of fathers in child custody disputes is atrocious, as is the fact that women consistently serve about third of the sentence a male would get for killing their spouse.

As far as custody issues, yes things have become very skewed. But, I'm not really sure how things should be changed to better suit all parties. It is extremely complex, and I have heard so many horror stories of people lying, and manipulating the system. Who knows?

I suspect your second point has more to do with a guaranteed more lenient sentence with mutterings of abuse, whether justified or not, and very hard to prove when one witness is deceased.

He does actually have a few other valid points, but the post as a whole is just a hate-fest.

[PERM BANNED]

What's so hateful about it? Everything on it is factually correct. Men do work harder in the private sector then women. More overtime, no breaks for family etc. If someone says they're a feminist, the PC Brigade slaps them on the back. If someone says they're a chauvinist, the PC brigade beats them down. Women and men aren't equal. That's reality. They should be treated equal under the law, but anyone who tries to ignore the physical differences and abilities between women and men is just fooling themself. --Yes, I've returned. I'll try to keep my head cool and not try to offend anyone deliberately.

[wedjat]

--Yes, I've returned. I'll try to keep my head cool and not try to offend anyone deliberately.

Highly unlikely, you just offended many of us w/your triumphant return post. Congratulations.

[Zimbochick]

What's so hateful about it? Everything on it is factually correct. Men do work harder in the private sector then women. More overtime, no breaks for family etc. If someone says they're a feminist, the PC Brigade slaps them on the back. If someone says they're a chauvinist, the PC brigade beats them down. Women and men aren't equal. That's reality. They should be treated equal under the law, but anyone who tries to ignore the physical differences and abilities between women and men is just fooling themself.

--Yes, I've returned. I'll try to keep my head cool and not try to offend anyone deliberately.

When you say "men work harder in the private sector", please explain. Until men are able to conceive and give birth, that physiological difference will need to be taken into account. As you yourself noted, there just are physical differences. I have never said women and men are physically equal, of course they are not. Feminism has nothing to do with being PC, it has to do with genuinely believing that men and women deserve equal social, political, and economic rights. That's all. No special treatment, at least I don't want that. When you say chauvinism, what are you actually describing? If it is the belief that men are inherently superior to women, then fuck yes, I will fight against that. If that is what you believe, then that is your right, but I can not respect that.

I most certainly do not agree that it is factually correct, for example:

You might add to this list the entire area of manners. We take for granted that men should hold doors for women, and women should be served first in restaurants. Can you even imagine that situation in reverse?

Yes, I extend that courtesy to my husband and other men in my life.

Generally speaking, society discourages male behavior whereas female behavior is celebrated. Exceptions are the fields of sports, humor, and war. Men are allowed to do what they want in those areas.

What is he even talking about, wife beating and ball scratching? Makes no sense.

Add to our list of inequities the fact that women have overtaken men in college attendance. If the situation were reversed it would be considered a national emergency.

This makes no sense. Are women expected to dumb down?

How about the higher rates for car insurance that young men pay compared to young women? Statistics support this inequity, but I don’t think anyone believes the situation would be legal if women were charged more for car insurance, no matter what the statistics said.

Young men have more auto accidents.

Women will counter with their own list of wrongs, starting with the well-known statistic that women earn only 80 cents on the dollar, on average, compared to what men earn for the same jobs. My readers will argue that if any two groups of people act differently, on average, one group is likely to get better results. On average, men negotiate pay differently and approach risk differently than women.

So that justifies a pay discrepancy?

Women will point out that few females are in top management jobs. Men will argue that if you ask a sample group of young men and young women if they would be willing to take the personal sacrifices needed to someday achieve such power, men are far more likely to say yes. In my personal non-scientific polling, men are about ten times more likely than women to trade family time for the highest level of career success.

All grand generalizations, and completely subjective.

The reality is that women are treated differently by society for exactly the same reason that children and the mentally handicapped are treated differently. It’s just easier this way for everyone. You don’t argue with a four-year old about why he shouldn’t eat candy for dinner. You don’t punch a mentally handicapped guy even if he punches you first. And you don’t argue when a women tells you she’s only making 80 cents to your dollar. It’s the path of least resistance. You save your energy for more important battles.

This is just plain insulting.

As for the rest it's just rambling insults.

P.S. Welcome back.

[wedjat]

Generally speaking, society discourages male behavior whereas female behavior is celebrated. Exceptions are the fields of sports, humor, and war. Men are allowed to do what they want in those areas.

What is he even talking about, wife beating and ball scratching? Makes no sense.

I don't know about you Zim, but I would find it totally freeing to scratch my crotch in public while spitting, I can't tell you.

[PERM BANNED]

Zimbo, I think the first thing to point out is that the article appears mostly tongue in cheek. Of course comparing women to retarded people or children is rude and a poor comparison, but I think it goes along with the tongue in cheek of the paper. Any many who has been in a relationship knows that somethings you just ignore when your female partner wants to argue. Call that sexist, but it's true. Women, are by and large much more dependent on feelings then hard numbers. This is in no way saying that they are any less intelligent or logical then men or lack the capacity to do so. Simply that how many men want to have a conversation with their partner about feelings. There are exceptions to every rule of course, but I know that sometimes it's better to let someone feel vindicated and support them even if you feel they're wrong simply because proving yourself right won't create the desired emotional effect. Why argue with your wife and win, if you'll just anger her in doing so? That's where I think he was going with this. Again, tounge in cheek. Women are wired to be more nurturing and caring then men. Look at every other primate species we share a common ancestor with. Male chimps, gorillas and orangutans are much more physical and aloof than their female counterparts. Humans are no different in terms of our innate urges. Compare the percentage of violent crime between men and women. Women aren't out doing violent crime, men are. When I say men work harder, i mean men work more hours in a comparable field to women. You're right men can't have babies. But I can't think of organization interested in business success that favors someone who takes time off to raise children versus someone who improved their knowledge and experience in the business world when it comes time to promotion. Men work more overtime and sacrfice more personal time then women. There was a recent study that came out a couple weeks ago highlighting all this. If you need me to, I'll try to dig it up. I'm not going to try to justify every bullet, but with regard to behavior, if a group of women go to the rest room together or breast feed in public, that's okay. If I get in a barroom brawl with some guys over a football game, I'm an idiot. If a woman goes to some rally for green energy, that's a good thing. If I sit in front of the TV all sunday and watch football, I'm an idiot. Again, tongue in cheek. Nothing is universal and maybe you don't like/do like some of these other events, but it's safe to say in america that society (jokingly) mocks some of these more than the other. With regard to auto-insurance, he made your argument. Men do have more auto-accidents then females at the age. Therefore they have a higher cost. Sounds logical. But his argument was if we charged women, the PC police would be upset. Take for example the scores of certain population groups on standardized tests. Asian females score the highest on all standardized tests. Yet, when a black male on average scores lower than a white male, people say cultural bias. You can say that the author is wrong that if young women had more accidents and in turn were charged higher amounts, no one would complain. But then I ask you, why do people complain about the pay disparity between men and women when all things equal, men put in more time (work harder) then women and objectively deserve a higher income for said effort? Again, I think his article was largely tongue in cheek, but his overall thesis was true. Women are okay with special treatment as long as it favors them. I've seriously dated 5 women and gone out with 3x that number. Never once have they offered to pay on our first couple of dates or pick me up. I'm okay with this and obviously they are as well. But I don't see any feminist marches for women's equality and advocating equality in this area. There are physical and mental differences between the sexes. None so stark that they deserve significant treatment to compensate, but they do exist. The strongest person will never be a woman (I guess some freak mutation could make that so, but do we really want to use extreme examples), yet some people have a problem when you identify that. There are other areas where GENERALLY speaking, one sex is better suited (though that doesn't mean the other is incapable) but I won't go into that on here. I personally don't see why it's a bad thing to acknowledge the strengths of each person and in turn collective groups. But thank you for the welcome, and I promise to not act like a dickhead as I did last time. I can't promise I won't offend anyone, but I will do my best to not intentionally do so.

[Hula]

What's so hateful about it? Everything on it is factually correct. Men do work harder in the private sector then women. More overtime, no breaks for family etc. If someone says they're a feminist, the PC Brigade slaps them on the back. If someone says they're a chauvinist, the PC brigade beats them down. Women and men aren't equal. That's reality. They should be treated equal under the law, but anyone who tries to ignore the physical differences and abilities between women and men is just fooling themself.



--Yes, I've returned. I'll try to keep my head cool and not try to offend anyone deliberately.

aloha randy who said men work more overtime without breaks, women also get shafted out of time for their families when they work. the differences are obvious however it does not preclude women from doing the same job as a man does.

[Hula]

Generally speaking, society discourages male behavior whereas female behavior is celebrated. Exceptions are the fields of sports, humor, and war. Men are allowed to do what they want in those areas.

What is he even talking about, wife beating and ball scratching? Makes no sense.

I don't know about you Zim, but I would find it totally freeing to scratch my crotch in public while spitting, I can't tell you.

ain't that the truth, what I wouldn't give to go one day without a shave

[Zimbochick]

Flagg,

You raise some interesting points. Most importantly, where do you find the chicks you date? Perhaps we'll have to set you up?

You may be correct that the blog post was written toungue in cheek, I certainly hope so.

I do think women, and I'll probably get reamed for saying this, but I believe younger women pick and choose from the tree of feminism. They have not experienced sexism up close and personal to the same extents as others, and are more inclined to use their feminine wiles on a whim when it suits them. I personally can't stand that sort of thing. I really do try to practice what I preach in that regard.

I do think the media, to some extent, is responsible for stereotyping gender behaviors, but we don't have to buy into it. I do not care for gender stereotypes at all. I most certainly do not fall neatly within any typical type, and will do my damnedest to ensure my kids follow their own path in that regard too.

As far as pay/work, in my opinion salary should be for productivity, and not overtime, or other criteria. The role of childcare does traditionally rest with the mother, and if she has to work, and can multitask well, and is as productive as a male counterpart, why should she be not be compensated equally for it just because she posseses XX chromosomes.

[PERM BANNED]

And to the best of my knowledge, productivity is what salary is based on (unless you're in a union ) . The problem is that more men in corporate America are willing to put aside families and what not until much later in life, or simply because they have a wife at home willing to care for the children. A man can produce offspring until the day he dies. A woman's clock starts to run out as she approaches 40. So just as that woman in corporate America is attaining a position of authority after working for 15 years, she finally decides to have children now or she'll never be able to. Fair or not, that's reality and decision to depart or take a lesser role, even temporarily, is enough to allow someone junior to step up and claim the reigns. Look at the biggest paying jobs in America today. Your doctors (the really well paid ones, like neuro-surgeons, plastic surgery) lawyers, scientist, brokers and CEOs. What percentage of them are men to women? It is lopsided to favor men, and as far as I know, no manufactured cap exists to keep it that way. In the end, more men are interested in seeking out the education and jobs that lead to this financial success than women. Personal lifestyle choices further distort gains. If corporate America is so greedy and focused on the bottom line, they should be interested in whom ever is best suited for the job, not the sex organ between their legs. The pool from which to choose from is more populated with men, so they get chosen. How man female billionares exist in the world? I don't know the answer to this, but my hunch is that men far out number them, and inherited wealth excluded, it's because of the risks, actions and sacrifices that were made. Who are making the decisions to take those risks and actions? Who isn't?

[Hula]

a career minded woman by the time she is forty has already has the kids she wants or she won't be having any at all. any job that is that time consuming, or needs that much attention is available to any sex should they want to give up most of a personal life. we get the short stick in that men can just cut and run, if they turn a "deaf ear" to the needs of their family. most women can't or won't.

[wedjat]

a career minded woman by the time she is forty has already has the kids she wants or she won't be having any at all. any job that is that time consuming, or needs that much attention is available to any sex should they want to give up most of a personal life. we get the short stick in that men can just cut and run, if they turn a "deaf ear" to the needs of their family. most women can't or won't.

Well there is a woman at work who adopted a girl, the girl is now in middle school I think but she's been a bit of a problem child so I remember last year my co-worker was gone a TON. I got stuck picking up the slack. I was perturbed to say the least. However, it's a pretty well known fact that women in the workplace have to work much harder than men to get the same respect, I've seen it happen. That's BS. Physical ability has nothing to do w/anything if the job doesn't warrant being able to carry 50lbs or more, right? It's how you work, not how much. If some man is putting in overtime to get the job done that a woman can do in 40-45 hours, than who's the smarter worker? For some reason, society looks admirably on people who live for their work, never take vacations, never call in sick, work 70 hours a week. That's ridiculous. I can do my job just as good as anyone else & you can be damn sure I'm not going to work 70 hours just to prove it to society.